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shocked at school crime By Jeanine 04/26/02 12:31:35 PM

Date: 04/26/02 12:31:35 PM
Name: Jeanine
Email: jeanine1011@earthlink.net
Subject: shocked at school crime
http://www.nssc1.org/index.html

For up to date statistics of the school violence and tragic deaths related to school 33 pages!! I am just beside myself after reading this. Broken hearted for the victims

Re: shocked at school crime By Hilda 04/27/02 05:52:23 PM

Date: 04/27/02 05:52:23 PM
Name: Hilda
Email: Hildalawrence@aolcom
Subject: Re: shocked at school crime
Dateline Erfurt, Germany--Is the school shooting body count at 17 or 18 now? Add another page to the 33, Jeanine.

Go "Underground" and read about Prussian schooling. Global may be an unpopular word, but school massacres and mayhem are transcontinental, from Littleton to Erfurt. What goes around comes around?

AOL News reports that 7.2 million legal firearms are in German homes, registered for sport and hunting and collecting.

Guns don't kill people? People kill people. The late Cleveland Amory may have had a good point: Support the right to arm bears.

Sad, sickening. Not surprising. As Graham said, the caged get crazed.

Hilda
Replying to:
http://www.nssc1.org/index.html

For up to date statistics of the school violence and tragic deaths related to school 33 pages!! I am just beside myself after reading this. Broken hearted for the victims
Quick Questions By Stan 04/28/02 11:06:57 AM
Date: 04/28/02 11:06:57 AM
Name: Stan
Email: staneandrus@cs.com
Subject: Quick Questions
Unless the guns involved in this shooting are magical or robotic objects, how did the shooting happen at all?
If the *person* hadn't *chosen* to enter the school and wreak havoc, how could it happen?
Isn't a gun just a thing?
Can a gun enter a school (or anywhere) and go off by itself?
Does logic ever even enter the discussion of these shootings?
Why are we so compelled to blame things (be it drugs, or alchohol or guns or government or nukes or bad schools) for human actions?
Stan

By way of qualification, I am a gun owner. But,I am not a 'gun nut'. Firearms are tools, some have utility only (like machine guns and pistols) they are ugly and very useful and have little asthetic value. Some are simly antique pieces. Some are very beautiful and very useful, like a Beretta duck gun or a Ruger Redhawk revolver. Asribing human qualities to things and vice versa is a slippery slope. It manifests itself in the way the modern West (US & Europe) seeks identity in cars, clothes, houses, things. I am not against things, I am for PEOPLE.

Re: Quick Questions By Harriette 05/5/02 08:27:12 AM

Date: 05/5/02 08:27:12 AM
Name: Harriette
Email: jacobsfamilyfarm@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Quick Questions
Thank you, Stan, for asking the "obvious" questions!

Despite all the "weapons" jargon of our society's everlasting debate - "things" cannot sprout legs, set out on course and set into motion the violent acts that are plaguing us (us being a loose term!).

How hard is that for anyone to understand?
Replying to:
Unless the guns involved in this shooting are magical or robotic objects, how did the shooting happen at all?
If the *person* hadn't *chosen* to enter the school and wreak havoc, how could it happen?
Isn't a gun just a thing?
Can a gun enter a school (or anywhere) and go off by itself?
Does logic ever even enter the discussion of these shootings?
Why are we so compelled to blame things (be it drugs, or alchohol or guns or government or nukes or bad schools) for human actions?
Stan

By way of qualification, I am a gun owner. But,I am not a 'gun nut'. Firearms are tools, some have utility only (like machine guns and pistols) they are ugly and very useful and have little asthetic value. Some are simly antique pieces. Some are very beautiful and very useful, like a Beretta duck gun or a Ruger Redhawk revolver. Asribing human qualities to things and vice versa is a slippery slope. It manifests itself in the way the modern West (US & Europe) seeks identity in cars, clothes, houses, things. I am not against things, I am for PEOPLE.
Re: Quick Questions By Hilda 04/29/02 04:10:07 AM

Date: 04/29/02 04:10:07 AM
Name: Hilda
Email: Hildalawrence@aol.com
Subject: Re: Quick Questions
Dear Stan,

Nice to read your enthusiastic response to Gray's letter on school, poor life prospects and, finally, no prospects at all. He does have a way with words, doesn't he? The confinement he writes about drives some people 'round the bend. Thankfully, not everyone thus unhinged decides to pick up a gun and open fire like the lad in Germany. News reports say he was angry because he'd been expelled from school over poor grades and despaired over what this portended for university admission.

I share your enthusiasm not only for what you call John Taylor Gatto's "dissent," but also for many of his positive ideas on education. I won't go into them now and get sidetracked from your queries on guns.

I do not believe that such mass slaughter occurs because the gunman has watched too many "Bonnie and Clyde" or "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" reruns, although glorification of violence, the Wild West and "heroic" gun battles may contribute to people's seeing the weapons as instruments of personal empowerment.

In a culture that inculcates belief in power over others as a measure of personal worth, a gun and a few rounds of ammo may be a fast way to induce the sense of self-worth that has been destroyed in school, seared into young souls through failure after failure. Think of John Hinckley, for example. Had he found success in achieving competence in any type of endeavor, from academic to athletic to recreational, to exercise his abilities in ways that were constructive to himself and others, perhaps he would not have succumbed to grandiose delusions.

In "Underground," Gatto gives a few clues on some of the causes of school shootings, of students going postal. For Gatto's take on the phenomenon, see page 167 of the book, under the subtitle "America Is Massified." Gatto says: "Students, men under military discipline, and employees in post offices, hospitals, and other large systems are forced into a condition of less than complete sanity. They are dangerous, as history has shown again and again." He then mentions the Columbine High shootings. (See www.rachelscott.com, a memorial site for one of the Columbine victims.) Gatto also gave a talk on the Columbine shootings that aired on C-Span last year.

Some of your questions are rhetorical and thus require no response. If you would like to debate gun ownership and Second Amendment rights, there are many channels that offer logical arguments on the issues. Sarah and Jim Brady, of course, offer one perspective, as does the congresswoman from New York whose husband was killed and son seriously wounded in the Long Island Railroad massacre a few years back. The NRA, Charlton Heston and groups such as SAF (the Second Amendment Foundation) are also debating, in court and out.

My own opinion is that like First Amendment rights, Second Amendment rights are not absolute. Laws, regulations and restrictions can be constitutionally applied and do not mean nullification of the rights of gun owners. These restrictions are similar to limits on First Amendment rights to freedom of speech. People cannot yell Fire! in a crowded theater when there is no fire.

Similarly, Charlton Heston, who, by the way, marched in Washington with the modern Martin Luther King, brought his influence to bear on Time Warner to try to get them to stop marketing Ice-T's "song" that alluded to killing police officers. Were Ice-T's First Amendment rights trampled on in this instance?

Of course a gun is not just a thing like any other thing. Loaded, it's a lethal weapon. A knife can also be used as a lethal weapon, but if the murderer in question in Germany had used a knife or other crude instrument of slaughter, it is unlikely that the body count would have reached 18.

Finally, Stan, I don't know what you have against Pollyanna, whose Glad Book stories have been equated with false optimism, which, like false encouragement, is worse than none. I haven't read the Glad Books since I was a young child, but I think such an interpretation may be a distortion of Pollyanna's cheerful disposition and "message." As far as do-gooders, I think they've also gotten a bad name. Doing good is better than doing the opposite, and doing good can involve victories, even small ones, over adversity and the intolerable conditions that Gray wrote about in his letter. Dissent, after all, should not turn into cynicism or one long "ain't it awful." You say you are for people, and that vote of confidence in humanity is encouraging. The Homo sapien species needs supporters. It would appear to be as endangered as many other forms of life on the planet.

In closing, I will not quote from the Glad Books, but how about a few lines from Shakespeare on adversity?

Sweet are the uses of adversity,
Which, like the toad, ugly and venomous,
Wears yet a precious jewel in his head;
And this our life, exempt from public haunt,
Finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks,
Sermons in stones, and good in every thing.

Hilda
Replying to:
Unless the guns involved in this shooting are magical or robotic objects, how did the shooting happen at all?
If the *person* hadn't *chosen* to enter the school and wreak havoc, how could it happen?
Isn't a gun just a thing?
Can a gun enter a school (or anywhere) and go off by itself?
Does logic ever even enter the discussion of these shootings?
Why are we so compelled to blame things (be it drugs, or alchohol or guns or government or nukes or bad schools) for human actions?
Stan

By way of qualification, I am a gun owner. But,I am not a 'gun nut'. Firearms are tools, some have utility only (like machine guns and pistols) they are ugly and very useful and have little asthetic value. Some are simly antique pieces. Some are very beautiful and very useful, like a Beretta duck gun or a Ruger Redhawk revolver. Asribing human qualities to things and vice versa is a slippery slope. It manifests itself in the way the modern West (US & Europe) seeks identity in cars, clothes, houses, things. I am not against things, I am for PEOPLE.

Re: Re: Quick Questions By Stan 04/30/02 06:02:55 PM

Date: 04/30/02 06:02:55 PM
Name: Stan
Email: staneandrus@cs.com
Subject: Re: Re: Quick Questions
My questions were questions. I expected answers. I was honestly curious what people think. I am not here to debate gun rights. Rights ARE absolute or they are not rights at all. I don't really care what the German madman *used* to kill people, as you and others have stated, its the motive that's far more important.

I must disagree with you on guns though, truly. A car, turned on and full of gas is a deadly weapon. A simple plastic gas can and 4 or 5 gallons of unleaded is a deadly weapon. A Boeing 767 is deadly weapon. A pack of plastic explosives is deadly weapon. All of these simple objects have been (mis)applied to far greater devastation than the German madman's pistol and pump-shotgun. So I wonder why some people are so entranced or hateful toward these low-tech (by today's standards truly) simple inanimate objects. People in this country (and apperantly others) have had access to firearms for several generations and yet, going 'postal' is very modern phenomenon. The thing could not act alone.

I am a big fan of humanity, in contrast to many of my fellow teachers/politician/good-gooders (who do more harm than good,BTW my real gripe with do-gooders are the ones who want to make a LAW for my own GOOD, cause I must be to stupid to not smoke or wear a bicycle helmet or whatever, its repulsive and has led to the whole forced-mass-schooling debacle we face today!). You see Hilda, people with the controlling instinct ultimately are also full of self-hatred.

It follows that is everyone is incompotent, even the controller may be incompotent and in need of a Mommy-State to intervene and provide: retirement (that is bankrupt), healthcare (that is overpriced), police protection (that fails), education (that also fails), national defense (that fails AND kills foreigners to boot), roads (pitted and dangerous), national parks & forestlands (open to exploitation to the best connected corporations), FCC (corrupt), FAA (incompotent), FBI (80 dead in Waco), CIA (ask the Cubans or the Venezualeans or the dead Baptist missionaries about the loving tender mercies) need I go ON? The incomplete person is always looking for some answer outside himself.
Stan
PS

For what its worth (And probably very little to anyone but me)-
My personal stance is a live and let live attitude. But the do-gooders don't share it. I just want to be left alone and free to associate how I choose, to support the ideas and programs I choose. This is the essence of liberty not libertine, freedom is the absolute most responsible position a man can take. If someone doesn't want to listen to my ideas, fine, let him go.

That's what is so great about a forum like this board, a reader can tune in on our exchange and weigh in with an opinion. Likewise, he might read a few lines and say "Oh, that's just Stan the Young Curmudgeon ranting at poop Hilda, I'll ignore it." It is a near perfect free market of ideas. No coercion, no 'rules' except those fostered by the host, and we all agree to them by virtue of our use of the board. If I find the content boring or evil, I can tune out. If I find it stimulating or of value, I can just read (like MANY do) or actually join in.
typo MUST READ By Stan 04/30/02 06:19:44 PM

Date: 04/30/02 06:19:44 PM
Name: Stan
Email: staneandrus@cs.com
Subject: typo MUST READ
'Poor Hilda' I meant 'Poor Hilda' man I feel just awful, no proofreading (sloth- a deadly sin!). I'm very sorry of the typo. I retract it, take is back and apologize to you before all the Gods at once and all readers of the board. Please find it in you heart to forgive my poop-poor typing.
Stan

Re: typo MUST READ By Hilda 05/3/02 04:26:27 AM

Date: 05/3/02 04:26:27 AM
Name: Hilda
Email: Hildalawrence@aol.com
Subject: Re: typo MUST READ

Dear Stan,

Not to worry! Typos are part of the new click-and-send medium. I have been called "offline" on urgent projects and will not be able to resume discussion of libertarian or other issues for a while. I'm sending this quick message so you don't think your typo drove me away. I'm sure no one would be insulted by a typo. Hope to resume dialogue when time permits.

Hilda
Replying to:
'Poor Hilda' I meant 'Poor Hilda' man I feel just awful, no proofreading (sloth- a deadly sin!). I'm very sorry of the typo. I retract it, take is back and apologize to you before all the Gods at once and all readers of the board. Please find it in you heart to forgive my poop-poor typing.
Stan

Re: Quick Questions By Jeanine 04/28/02 05:14:43 PM

Date: 04/28/02 05:14:43 PM
Name: Jeanine
Email: jeanine1011@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Quick Questions
I dont think it matters whether it is a "gun" or any other object. the main question should be why is this generation so angry? {well I know why, but not many would agree} kids locked up in school institutions for 12 years or more, families aren't around, even if they are most really aren't. {they are too busy trying to keep up with the jones's and chasing after the almighty dollar at whatever cost} just plug the kids in to the latest shootem up movie., most parents can't even understand a reason or meaning for their existence... so they can't help their kids. No, I dont blame "guns" exclusively for these incidents, I guess the media is somewhat to blame, brainless people who get off on watching movies where people just blow eachother away. it is sickening!! I would just like to know how in the hell it even got to this point? at what point did we think it was okay to sit down with the family and watch such violence? {well I dont personally- but know many who do} kids raised into this type of atmosphere are just desensitised to it all. it's anger, kids who have no meaning in their lives {because most adults dont} so whether it be a gun or knofe or whatever, in this quick fix mentality they know no reprocussions for their actions until it is too late...
Replying to:
Unless the guns involved in this shooting are magical or robotic objects, how did the shooting happen at all?
If the *person* hadn't *chosen* to enter the school and wreak havoc, how could it happen?
Isn't a gun just a thing?
Can a gun enter a school (or anywhere) and go off by itself?
Does logic ever even enter the discussion of these shootings?
Why are we so compelled to blame things (be it drugs, or alchohol or guns or government or nukes or bad schools) for human actions?
Stan

By way of qualification, I am a gun owner. But,I am not a 'gun nut'. Firearms are tools, some have utility only (like machine guns and pistols) they are ugly and very useful and have little asthetic value. Some are simly antique pieces. Some are very beautiful and very useful, like a Beretta duck gun or a Ruger Redhawk revolver. Asribing human qualities to things and vice versa is a slippery slope. It manifests itself in the way the modern West (US & Europe) seeks identity in cars, clothes, houses, things. I am not against things, I am for PEOPLE.

Re: Re: Quick Questions By smccoy 05/4/02 11:06:19 AM

Date: 05/4/02 11:06:19 AM
Name: smccoy
Email: rsandjjj@quixnet.net
Subject: Re: Re: Quick Questions
I attended a meeting this past week and was adruptly refreshed on why I hate committee work. People can be impassioned with rules that are suppose to make situations better for the common good. I gently reminded the members of the "do good" committee that what they were proposing did not work for me. At issue was the use of individual cd headphones by students. A bright young woman gave a speech on how our society was built on rules and to think that we can function without rules would breed chaos . . . etc..... I don't feel like spending my time discussing simple issues that could be individually solved. (The issue was - please don't laugh - allowing a couple of very hyper students to listen to their headphones while reading. This works for them and I have allowed it because the other students in my room wanted it quiet - so I could not use a classroom cd player as the committee suggested. Yes, I knew that there is a district policy of no headphones but I was making a professional judgement in my classroom that has been very successful for two young men who are destined to explode if their eyes are not opened to the joy that could be possible in their life. (Both are on ritalin - one since he has been five and he is now sixteen - obviously it has not helped his ability to make choices but the music while he read seemed to be an easy fix. By the way, he is reading!) Others in the school do not think that a rule should be broken for any reason. I am weary of the mentality that I must always conform. I am tired of my "edges" being sanded away for the common good. I wish I would have ignored the committee and continued to do as I thought was best at the moment. When will I learn?? I know this is a bit off topic but personel choice is multi faceted.

Replying to:

I dont think it matters whether it is a "gun" or any other object. the main question should be why is this generation so angry? {well I know why, but not many would agree} kids locked up in school institutions for 12 years or more, families aren't around, even if they are most really aren't. {they are too busy trying to keep up with the jones's and chasing after the almighty dollar at whatever cost} just plug the kids in to the latest shootem up movie., most parents can't even understand a reason or meaning for their existence... so they can't help their kids. No, I dont blame "guns" exclusively for these incidents, I guess the media is somewhat to blame, brainless people who get off on watching movies where people just blow eachother away. it is sickening!! I would just like to know how in the hell it even got to this point? at what point did we think it was okay to sit down with the family and watch such violence? {well I dont personally- but know many who do} kids raised into this type of atmosphere are just desensitised to it all. it's anger, kids who have no meaning in their lives {because most adults dont} so whether it be a gun or knofe or whatever, in this quick fix mentality they know no reprocussions for their actions until it is too late...
Replying to:
Unless the guns involved in this shooting are magical or robotic objects, how did the shooting happen at all?
If the *person* hadn't *chosen* to enter the school and wreak havoc, how could it happen?
Isn't a gun just a thing?
Can a gun enter a school (or anywhere) and go off by itself?
Does logic ever even enter the discussion of these shootings?
Why are we so compelled to blame things (be it drugs, or alchohol or guns or government or nukes or bad schools) for human actions?
Stan

By way of qualification, I am a gun owner. But,I am not a 'gun nut'. Firearms are tools, some have utility only (like machine guns and pistols) they are ugly and very useful and have little asthetic value. Some are simly antique pieces. Some are very beautiful and very useful, like a Beretta duck gun or a Ruger Redhawk revolver. Asribing human qualities to things and vice versa is a slippery slope. It manifests itself in the way the modern West (US & Europe) seeks identity in cars, clothes, houses, things. I am not against things, I am for PEOPLE.

INTERACTIVE METRONOME By Martha 05/6/02 10:18:17 AM
Date: 05/6/02 10:18:17 AM
Name: Martha
Email: mulkie@rutchem.rutgers.edu
Subject: INTERACTIVE METRONOME
Many so-called hyperactive kids absolutely crave music and the calming effects of a steady rhythm (my son is one of them). He demands to listen to music all the time. Since he has grown up with classical music, we have no objections to this. Sometimes a person with a slower metabolism or pulse serves as a "stable pony" for these nervous kids. Music can serve to override and regulate their rhythm, which is often too fast. As Aristotle said, "Music is for the mind what gymnastics is for the body."

There is a program now called "Interactive Metronome." They have their own web site, http://www.interactivemetronome.com. I'm not singing the praises of it, because I don't know enough about it yet. But there is more information at the site.

There are a lot of vested interests, however, desiring to maintain the status quo in the Ritalin industry.

Replying to:

I attended a meeting this past week and was adruptly refreshed on why I hate committee work. People can be impassioned with rules that are suppose to make situations better for the common good. I gently reminded the members of the "do good" committee that what they were proposing did not work for me. At issue was the use of individual cd headphones by students. A bright young woman gave a speech on how our society was built on rules and to think that we can function without rules would breed chaos . . . etc..... I don't feel like spending my time discussing simple issues that could be individually solved. (The issue was - please don't laugh - allowing a couple of very hyper students to listen to their headphones while reading. This works for them and I have allowed it because the other students in my room wanted it quiet - so I could not use a classroom cd player as the committee suggested. Yes, I knew that there is a district policy of no headphones but I was making a professional judgement in my classroom that has been very successful for two young men who are destined to explode if their eyes are not opened to the joy that could be possible in their life. (Both are on ritalin - one since he has been five and he is now sixteen - obviously it has not helped his ability to make choices but the music while he read seemed to be an easy fix. By the way, he is reading!) Others in the school do not think that a rule should be broken for any reason. I am weary of the mentality that I must always conform. I am tired of my "edges" being sanded away for the common good. I wish I would have ignored the committee and continued to do as I thought was best at the moment. When will I learn?? I know this is a bit off topic but personel choice is multi faceted.
Replying to:

I dont think it matters whether it is a "gun" or any other object. the main question should be why is this generation so angry? {well I know why, but not many would agree} kids locked up in school institutions for 12 years or more, families aren't around, even if they are most really aren't. {they are too busy trying to keep up with the jones's and chasing after the almighty dollar at whatever cost} just plug the kids in to the latest shootem up movie., most parents can't even understand a reason or meaning for their existence... so they can't help their kids. No, I dont blame "guns" exclusively for these incidents, I guess the media is somewhat to blame, brainless people who get off on watching movies where people just blow eachother away. it is sickening!! I would just like to know how in the hell it even got to this point? at what point did we think it was okay to sit down with the family and watch such violence? {well I dont personally- but know many who do} kids raised into this type of atmosphere are just desensitised to it all. it's anger, kids who have no meaning in their lives {because most adults dont} so whether it be a gun or knofe or whatever, in this quick fix mentality they know no reprocussions for their actions until it is too late...
Replying to:
Unless the guns involved in this shooting are magical or robotic objects, how did the shooting happen at all?
If the *person* hadn't *chosen* to enter the school and wreak havoc, how could it happen?
Isn't a gun just a thing?
Can a gun enter a school (or anywhere) and go off by itself?
Does logic ever even enter the discussion of these shootings?
Why are we so compelled to blame things (be it drugs, or alchohol or guns or government or nukes or bad schools) for human actions?
Stan

By way of qualification, I am a gun owner. But,I am not a 'gun nut'. Firearms are tools, some have utility only (like machine guns and pistols) they are ugly and very useful and have little asthetic value. Some are simly antique pieces. Some are very beautiful and very useful, like a Beretta duck gun or a Ruger Redhawk revolver. Asribing human qualities to things and vice versa is a slippery slope. It manifests itself in the way the modern West (US & Europe) seeks identity in cars, clothes, houses, things. I am not against things, I am for PEOPLE.

Re: INTERACTIVE METRONOME By smccoy 05/7/02 07:58:46 PM

Date: 05/7/02 07:58:46 PM
Name: smccoy
Email: rsandjjj@quixnet.net
Subject: Re: INTERACTIVE METRONOME
Thank you. I will visit the site that you suggested.

Replying to:

Many so-called hyperactive kids absolutely crave music and the calming effects of a steady rhythm (my son is one of them). He demands to listen to music all the time. Since he has grown up with classical music, we have no objections to this. Sometimes a person with a slower metabolism or pulse serves as a "stable pony" for these nervous kids. Music can serve to override and regulate their rhythm, which is often too fast. As Aristotle said, "Music is for the mind what gymnastics is for the body."

There is a program now called "Interactive Metronome." They have their own web site, http://www.interactivemetronome.com. I'm not singing the praises of it, because I don't know enough about it yet. But there is more information at the site.

There are a lot of vested interests, however, desiring to maintain the status quo in the Ritalin industry.
Replying to:

I attended a meeting this past week and was adruptly refreshed on why I hate committee work. People can be impassioned with rules that are suppose to make situations better for the common good. I gently reminded the members of the "do good" committee that what they were proposing did not work for me. At issue was the use of individual cd headphones by students. A bright young woman gave a speech on how our society was built on rules and to think that we can function without rules would breed chaos . . . etc..... I don't feel like spending my time discussing simple issues that could be individually solved. (The issue was - please don't laugh - allowing a couple of very hyper students to listen to their headphones while reading. This works for them and I have allowed it because the other students in my room wanted it quiet - so I could not use a classroom cd player as the committee suggested. Yes, I knew that there is a district policy of no headphones but I was making a professional judgement in my classroom that has been very successful for two young men who are destined to explode if their eyes are not opened to the joy that could be possible in their life. (Both are on ritalin - one since he has been five and he is now sixteen - obviously it has not helped his ability to make choices but the music while he read seemed to be an easy fix. By the way, he is reading!) Others in the school do not think that a rule should be broken for any reason. I am weary of the mentality that I must always conform. I am tired of my "edges" being sanded away for the common good. I wish I would have ignored the committee and continued to do as I thought was best at the moment. When will I learn?? I know this is a bit off topic but personel choice is multi faceted.
Replying to:

I dont think it matters whether it is a "gun" or any other object. the main question should be why is this generation so angry? {well I know why, but not many would agree} kids locked up in school institutions for 12 years or more, families aren't around, even if they are most really aren't. {they are too busy trying to keep up with the jones's and chasing after the almighty dollar at whatever cost} just plug the kids in to the latest shootem up movie., most parents can't even understand a reason or meaning for their existence... so they can't help their kids. No, I dont blame "guns" exclusively for these incidents, I guess the media is somewhat to blame, brainless people who get off on watching movies where people just blow eachother away. it is sickening!! I would just like to know how in the hell it even got to this point? at what point did we think it was okay to sit down with the family and watch such violence? {well I dont personally- but know many who do} kids raised into this type of atmosphere are just desensitised to it all. it's anger, kids who have no meaning in their lives {because most adults dont} so whether it be a gun or knofe or whatever, in this quick fix mentality they know no reprocussions for their actions until it is too late...
Replying to:
Unless the guns involved in this shooting are magical or robotic objects, how did the shooting happen at all?
If the *person* hadn't *chosen* to enter the school and wreak havoc, how could it happen?
Isn't a gun just a thing?
Can a gun enter a school (or anywhere) and go off by itself?
Does logic ever even enter the discussion of these shootings?
Why are we so compelled to blame things (be it drugs, or alchohol or guns or government or nukes or bad schools) for human actions?
Stan

By way of qualification, I am a gun owner. But,I am not a 'gun nut'. Firearms are tools, some have utility only (like machine guns and pistols) they are ugly and very useful and have little asthetic value. Some are simly antique pieces. Some are very beautiful and very useful, like a Beretta duck gun or a Ruger Redhawk revolver. Asribing human qualities to things and vice versa is a slippery slope. It manifests itself in the way the modern West (US & Europe) seeks identity in cars, clothes, houses, things. I am not against things, I am for PEOPLE.